Read Books™

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Re: Read Books™

Postby selfinflikted » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:26 pm

Eh. It depends, for me. I don't patronize Chik fil A, for instance, anymore because they donate money to causes that I do not agree with. I'd do the same with any artist. Why would I give money to a person who supports things I don't agree with by patronizing their establishments, movies, music, or other art? I wouldn't. Thing is, if artists and such would just keep their opinions about certain topics to themselves, then people like me would never even know and it wouldn't be a thing.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby soundwave106 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:24 pm

ClavAnother wrote:Also I notice that many people comment to me that they won't read his books or see the movie because he doesn't like gay people, but I don't actually think agreeing with people's views has anything to do with their art. If we ever knew most of the artists we adore, we'd probably hate them all.


Orson Scott Card is a Mormon with some viewpoints that lean towards, shall I say, in stupid stereotypical USA political style terms, "red state". His political views tend to be, in my view, blunt. At times, not very nuanced, well rounded, or informed, in my opinion.

But they are certainly more complex than what I shall call, shall I say, the "blue state clickbait" viewpoint of him. Where your usual suspect websites basically fight to compete with headlines saying something like "Orson Scott Card, bigot, pens an EVEN MORE racist, homophobic rant today!". It's like bait for !!!PROGRESSIVE OUTRAGE!!!. Hey, lefties, click here and look how racist and homophobic this guy is! Be horrified while we make advertising money off of your outrage! :samsh:

I don't agree with quite a bit of his politics, mind you, but I could say that for a lot of people (and I'm sure vice versa). And I agree less with outrage clickbaiting (this goes for both sides). :facepalm:

I haven't read the books, but based on the plot summaries that I've seen and articles about the work, there are some criticisms that stick out. EG: Ender is a bit too Mary Sueish. Ender's Game plays as sort of a geek revenge fantasy. Ender's Game has too many whiffs of fascism (the later actually may tie into Orson's politics a tad, but it's *actually relevant*). These type of faults (if the reviewers are correct, which I honestly don't know if they are 100% wrong) would be of more concern to me than his views on homosexuality... which seem to have no relation to the book.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby MetroSonus » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:04 pm

That's pretty much it man and I think these days people want to be "triggered" and the sad thing is is that its become a form if entertainment, as it really accomplishes nothing other than attracting attention to one thing or another.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Veracohr » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:41 am

soundwave106 wrote:
ClavAnother wrote:I haven't read the books, but based on the plot summaries that I've seen and articles about the work, there are some criticisms that stick out. EG: Ender is a bit too Mary Sueish. Ender's Game plays as sort of a geek revenge fantasy. Ender's Game has too many whiffs of fascism (the later actually may tie into Orson's politics a tad, but it's *actually relevant*).


Do you happen to have a link for that? I don't quite know how that fits, I'd be interested in reading it.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby soundwave106 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:13 pm

Veracohr wrote:Do you happen to have a link for that? I don't quite know how that fits, I'd be interested in reading it.


Now that I'm sorting through, I think a lot of these criticisms were thrown at the movie more than the book. For instance, this link where the critic actually says the *movie* is deconstructed into a geek revenge fantasy, where the book is something quite a bit more than that. The proto-fascist angle is mentioned in the AV movie review here as well, but again, for the movie.

I'm also seeing message board chatter with these accusations that I probably read, but "the peanut gallery is the peanut gallery".

My best guess is that, since these elements *are* in the movie, A) these accusations are "in a way" true, elements exist; B) the book however seems to be (again, from reviews only) way more complicated than these accusations; C) some of the message board chatter on the book however will correlate Card's right wing views into their memory of the book and simplify to be negative.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Veracohr » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:18 pm

That A.V. Club review is terrible, it gave the movie way too much credit. It also only mentioned 'fascist' once, in relation to "every angry teenage boy", not so much in relation to the movie or book. Though I have to admit that I've never understood the concept of fascism. People use the word a lot but I have just never gotten a good, firm idea of what exactly fascism is, even after reading definitions and Wikipedia.

Some people seem to see undercurrents in books that I either don't agree are there, or just miss. I saw someone mention an undercurrent of anti-communism in Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth books, and I thought "huh?"
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Plink Floyd » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:45 am

Veracohr wrote:Though I have to admit that I've never understood the concept of fascism
I thought I did, but your post made me look into it, and now I kno me big dummy, thank you very much.

But, you know what? Never mind. I'm just going to pretend all those scholars never wrote all those lengthy tomes that I wouldn't finish if I started them, and call it even. I've read 1984, Animal Farm, Atlas Shrugged, and my company's employee manual, so I think I'll know it if I see it.

If movie/book critics toss that word around, it probably proves they don't understand the meaning of the word either. I suspect they just want to label people who don't agree with them.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby soundwave106 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:04 am

Veracohr wrote:That A.V. Club review is terrible, it gave the movie way too much credit. It also only mentioned 'fascist' once, in relation to "every angry teenage boy", not so much in relation to the movie or book. Though I have to admit that I've never understood the concept of fascism. People use the word a lot but I have just never gotten a good, firm idea of what exactly fascism is, even after reading definitions and Wikipedia.


Generally most people would associate "fascism" with Hitler / Germany politics (which makes fascism a pejorative) and it usually gets thrown around at jingoistic / pro-military / pro-war pieces. I default to the typical definition of "fascism" in conversation. (Meaning, some critics found Enders Game to jingoistic or pro-war. No idea if true.)

Personally, I think the Italian political version advocated by Mussolini is the classic form of "fascism": Central planning and authority, strong control of the marketplace with a strong nationalist undercurrent, the merging of government and business interests, but unlike communism there is a degree of private ownership maintained and respect for market forces.

Some of the other European fascist movements were merely right wing populist movements similar to the right wing populist movements of today and yesterday and in the future. If you follow European politics, you know that today's right wing populist movements vary considerably in scope and content.

So yes, it is a strange word. To put it this way: Under the Italian style concept, I almost think that at this time the current Chinese government is the closest modern equivalent we have to a true fascist philosophy in action.

To put it another way: in this interview with Card, the statement Orson said that was possibly closest to a fascist viewpoint, if any, was the "provocative statement" the interviewer liked the most.

However, most people aren't knee deep in this enough to be that nuanced. :tounge:
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Plink Floyd » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:57 am

Yeah, I always thought 'fascist' = evil despotic dictatorship: Mussolini, Stalin or Kim*.

*Jong, not Kardashian.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Purity_Control » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:58 am

That's pretty much it man and I think these days people want to be "triggered" and the sad thing is is that its become a form if entertainment, as it really accomplishes nothing other than attracting attention to one thing or another.


There's an inteview with Genesis P-Orridge from the 70s or perhaps early 80s where he's talking about the double standards in relation to that kind of thing, mainly the idea that it's ok for newspapers to make a lot of money from stories about sex/violence/crime and other subjects considered to be vile or shocking, so long as they pretend to be terribly indignant about it all.

But they would be the first to have a go at him for doing the same with art/music, again while claiming to be warning everyone how disgusting and shocking it all was.

Now the internet has replaced newspapers for a lot of people as their principal source of 'news' and the things that shock some demographics are different to others, but the idea is the same.

Whereas shocking headlines once sold papers, now their web equivalent is clickbait.

Those people that wanted to be triggered where always there.

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Re: Read Books™

Postby Veracohr » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:57 pm

Plink Floyd wrote:Yeah, I always thought 'fascist' = evil despotic dictatorship: Mussolini, Stalin or Kim*.


Yeah, that's my point. The word 'fascist' was created by Mussolini's party, right? People seem to apply that word to authoritarian, dictatorial governing, which are concepts that have been around longer than the word fascist. But people use it as though it has a meaning somehow separate from 'authoritarian'.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Plink Floyd » Mon May 04, 2015 3:50 am

I have lately read:

The Complete Adventures of Horatio Hornblower by C. S. Forester (The African Queen)

The Entire Collected Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (for the 10th or 12th time since kidhood)

A bunch of H. Rider Haggard

And

Some scifi funsies by a fellow named Alan Black: Titanium Texicans, Metal Boxes, Chewing Rocks, Empty Space.

It would be an injustice to say they are derivative of Heinlein's juvies, but you can't miss the homage that this author unmistakably pays to The Master. I could sum them all up by saying they're just like RAH, but without the science lessons. Good fun. I found them free in the Kindle Owners Lending Library.

-

So, any good reads from you lot?

(No CardAnother, I haven't got the rest of the OSC yet...)
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Re: Read Books™

Postby ClavAnother » Mon May 04, 2015 4:18 am

Plink Floyd wrote:(The African Queen)

The Entire of Sherlock Holmes

The Master.

(No CardAnother yet...)



So that puts me in mind of the time I watched Bogart float down the river.

So that puts me in mind of the time I listened to ALL of the radio plays from the 40s through the 60s.

So that puts me in mind of the time I first read Time Enough For Love.

So that puts me in mind of the times.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby selfinflikted » Mon May 04, 2015 11:40 am

I am re-reading The Exorcist for about the 100th time. Excellent writing. If your senses are not easily offended, I recommend this book. If they are, I recommend this book.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Plink Floyd » Mon May 04, 2015 12:05 pm

Would it give me heebjeebies? I don't like thems. A scary book is much worse than a scary movie...

The African Queen is a great movie. It's ending is much better than the book.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby selfinflikted » Mon May 04, 2015 1:27 pm

Well, to me, the movie was only scary when I was a child. But I'm one of those weirdos whose arm hair will stand on end and get gooseboumps from a well-written bit of prose. Kinda like when you hear an awesome riff in a song and get the goose pimples, well, a good line in a book does that to me, too. And The Exorcist is chock full of good lines, and has extremely natural-sounding dialog, with TONS of dry wit, between the characters. But if you get the heebie jeebies from scary books, it might not be good for ya ;)
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Re: Read Books™

Postby Plink Floyd » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:20 pm

Do people still read? Or are the present synth times too exciting?

The past few months have exposed me to:

The Rest of O.S.Card. Most excellent!

Just about everything H. Rider Haggard ever wrote, which is A LOT. I had no idea how extremely prolific he was. Mostly ripping yarns, too. Teh Quatermain stuff is teh bomb.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby ElectricPuppy » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:56 pm

I look forward to when I can just book for fun again. SOON.
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Re: Read Books™

Postby ClavAnother » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:54 pm

I've recommended OSC many times. He's possibly my favourite author
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Re: Read Books™

Postby ClavAnother » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:55 pm

I still book daily, but then again I synth too so I'm just weird altogether.
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