Oh, hello there.

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Oh, hello there.

Postby ElectricPuppy » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:11 pm

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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby ClavAnother » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:01 am

yes. it looks marvelous.

I approve.
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby ElectricPuppy » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:12 am

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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby Plink Floyd » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:42 am

I got somewhat acquainted with his big brother @ Sweetwater.

Sweet.
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby MetroSonus » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:03 pm

Sounds cooll :thu:

so.. dsi had a prophet 08 and a 12? is that right?
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby christianrock » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:42 pm

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I'm sure the digital oscillators sound just fine. But usually they use them to make the synth a bit cheaper...
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby Plink Floyd » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:22 am

Huh. I didn't know those were in there. DSI faq says:

Why do you use DCOs?
That's easy. They're stable and they enable us to make great-sounding, affordable instruments that stay in tune (when you want them to). There seems to be some lingering distaste for DCOs based solely upon the spotty reputations of DCO-based synths from days of yore. We've been making synths with DCOs since 2001 and we think they sound darn good. And so, apparently, do the thousands of happy people who have bought those synths. And if you like tuning drift, that's what the Oscillator Slop parameter is for!


I wonder if Osc Slop allows one to individuate the amount of slop applied to each osc?

How can the signal path be "100% analog" if you're using DCOs?
DCOs are not digital oscillators, they are digitally controlled oscillators. The circuitry that generates the actual waveforms is analog.


Now, maybe Dave uses something different than the DCOs I've observed, but the ones I'm familiar with are nothing more than Programmable Interval Timers that output dirty square waves. But I've always thought that the old DCO synths sound just fine... IF they had more than one osc/voice. See, you take two oscs...
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby MetroSonus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:16 pm

I assume he's still using synths on a chip though? And correct me if I'm wrong but it's because he's using DCOs, that's what allows the synth to have presets and what not? And I guess by extentions, Moog is doing something similar these days?

Are you saying that you consider DCOs a negative?
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby soundwave106 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:01 pm

MetroSonus wrote:I assume he's still using synths on a chip though? And correct me if I'm wrong but it's because he's using DCOs, that's what allows the synth to have presets and what not? And I guess by extentions, Moog is doing something similar these days?


DCO generally refers to an oscillator (still "analog") synchronized to a digital clock. You can use VCOs with presets, in that case all the computer is doing is controlling the VCO's control voltage.

With DCOs you can use the clock output's square wave and waveshape it I suppose, but a lot of the designs I *think* simply use the clock to control the oscillation of a ramp or triangle core.

I have no problems with DCOs (had a Waldorf Pulse that sounded great with em and a Juno 106 that was good enough). The major downside of a lot of DCO implementations is that typically they are not free-running oscs -- not a problem for many patches, but for a unison detune type patch that is a problem.

I've just never gotten along with DSI synths overall for some reason. They do use chips for their filter and I've found the filter "lackluster" for some reason.
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby MetroSonus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:42 pm

I have to say that's all quite fascinating that a computer will simply replicate the needed voltage. I mean, it's logical, but still fascinating that it can be done today whereas previously it was only the hybrids and stuff that did that.

I admit, I'm partial to the CEM/SSM sound. I really enjoyed the BassStation II and the Minitaur. I don't know where those sit, but I also spent some time playing with a voyager and a phatty and they really didn't grab me they way those two did. I know Moog has been famous for "that sound" and maybe their recent stuff is a departure from the older in terms of design. Or the presets sucked and I just couldn't turn it up to 11...
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby ClavAnother » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:25 pm

MetroSonus wrote:I admit, I'm partial to the CEM/SSM sound...



Thread hijack

Please don't mention SSMs to me, i really need to sell my Trident :cry: and it's those darn SSMs that keep me from doing it... I'm a sucker for that filter.

/Thread hijack
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby christianrock » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:01 pm

No no no

Those aren't DCOs

It's right there in the DSI page that got copied and pasted to the cover of CMG... ;)

This synth - Like the Prophet 12 - actually uses completely digital oscillators - and it has 4 of them plus a sub oscillator. Not DCOs. DCOs are digitally-controlled analog oscillators. These are full-on digital oscillators, with a lot of waveforms available. It needs converters before it hits the filter.

Some say though, that these digital oscillators actually sound better than the DCOs Dave Smith was using until he supposedly started to run out of them.
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby christianrock » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:09 pm

Plink Floyd wrote:I got somewhat acquainted with his big brother @ Sweetwater.

Sweet.


You posted no pics. Therefore, it didn't happen.
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby Plink Floyd » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:59 am

soundwave106 wrote:DCO generally refers to an oscillator (still "analog") synchronized to a digital clock. You can use VCOs with presets, in that case all the computer is doing is controlling the VCO's control voltage.
The DCOs in the Juno-106, Poly-61 & Kawai SX-210 and possibly others, are not really oscillators at all. They used an Intel 8253 Programmable Interval Timer which is, simply put, a programmable divider. In the Juno's case, the master clock frequency was 8Mhz. After juggling the inputs from the keyboard, pitch bend, portamento ect, the proccessor told the PIT how much to divide the clock frequency, and the output was an audio frequency square wave. It couldn't be less analog.

That said, I'm sure there are plenty of newer DCOs than the ones with which I'm familiar. If someone could point me in the direction of a schematic or two, I'd be ever so grateful...
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby Plink Floyd » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:08 am

christianrock wrote:
Plink Floyd wrote:I got somewhat acquainted with his big brother @ Sweetwater.

Sweet.


You posted no pics. Therefore, it didn't happen.
I took no pic because I assumed it would be a very boring image, me headphoned and hunkered over in a showroom, silenty plinking at a Pro 12.

I'm pretty sure I assumed right.

---

I haven't yet blathered about the Fest because I want to include pics of a few acquisitions that need to be racked up, which means a rack rearrangement for which I can't seem to find the time right now...

:mad:
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby Veracohr » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:46 am

This thing interests me. I'm an analog fan, but I don't particularly care that it has digital oscillators. Hell, I use softsynths as much as hard synths, so what do I care? I do, however, care that the idea sounds awesome. I'm particularly interested in the "all-new dual filter design". Having two filter types is available is cool, and if he made the 4-pole better sounding than the Evolver filters, that would be even better! I haven't heard the new Prophet filters first and, so I can't use them as a reference.

The on-board BBD delay is especially cool.
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby soundwave106 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:21 pm

Plink Floyd wrote:The DCOs in the Juno-106, Poly-61 & Kawai SX-210 and possibly others, are not really oscillators at all. They used an Intel 8253 Programmable Interval Timer which is, simply put, a programmable divider. In the Juno's case, the master clock frequency was 8Mhz. After juggling the inputs from the keyboard, pitch bend, portamento ect, the proccessor told the PIT how much to divide the clock frequency, and the output was an audio frequency square wave. It couldn't be less analog.


Unfortunately, I have not seen any schematics; it's more like statements that people have made. As I understand it, for the typical DCO the clock was not the basis of all waveforms (probably because it's hard to waveshape a square?). Rather, for sawtooth, the timer replaced the comparator in a typical ramp core VCO (the comparator tells when to reset a rising value). Now, your square wave OTOH is pretty much the clock directly. Other waveforms are wave-shaped after the sawtooth. (I welcome corrections of course, maybe a VCO without a comparator is what a "wave-shaping" circuit is :lol: ).

The problem I see in some of the whole "digital vs. analog" thing is various engineering vs. marketing things that have emerged over time. The problem with calling a programmable interval timer "digital" for this type of circuit is that, frankly, nothing is being coded in discrete values, the timer is just a way to get a pulse wave. So in a way, it kind of is *not* digital (as in digitally encoded). It's more like a bastardization of a chip that normally is used for digital purposes. But in the 1980s, digital was cool, so synth manufacturers were happy to plaster "digital" all over their synths (Yay! Not out of tune!). In the 1990s and beyond, manufacturers go *out of their way* to avoid the term, because digital synths now mean "no phat bass" or whatever.

The *real* question I would have of modern DCO polys like the Prophet is whether or not they are phase-locked. *This* is the issue in a lot of the early Roland and other designs: from what I understand, they only use *one* timer chip and spread it among all the voices. I think the advantages / disadvantages would be a lot less between VCOs and DCOs if each oscillator had its own timer, which should be quite feasible in the modern era. Of course, this doesn't apply to the Prophet 2 / 12...
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby MetroSonus » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:30 pm

christianrock wrote:No no no

Those aren't DCOs

It's right there in the DSI page that got copied and pasted to the cover of CMG... ;)




Yes you've discovered my secret. I cut and paste the internet.




now you must die.



:mad:
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby christianrock » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:42 pm

Hey I've been doing it for years, it's called HAI GUYZ :lol:
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Re: Oh, hello there.

Postby ElectricPuppy » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:02 pm

soundwave106 wrote: Rather, for sawtooth, the timer replaced the comparator in a typical ramp core VCO (the comparator tells when to reset a rising value). Now, your square wave OTOH is pretty much the clock directly.


I haz teh schematic for the Juno, this is what they did. There's no comparator to reset the integrator, it's reset by a digital clock. For this to work, I think the CPU sets the integrator to an approximation of the correct frequency so that it can get as much "meat" out of the sawtooth as it can before resetting it. If it didn't, then the sawtooth would reduce in amplitude at higher frequencies.

And yes, the "unison" mode is God-awful thanks to this technique.


Regarding the "oscillator slop" in the Prophet: My PolyEvolver had this parameter too. I *think* it was a global setting, though, not per oscillator.
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