DIY Filter Question...

Keyboards, Synths, Samplers and Groove Boxes.

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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby ElectricPuppy » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:31 am

gregwar wrote:what about making your own panels ? the price for cnc machines varies wildly and is a hobby in and of itself lol. i've seen them cheaper second hand and i'm handy with grinders, dremel tools, welding, etc. i think it would be cool to be able to offer them to other diy tinkerers


I've made my own panels, but they're just bare minimal things with the holes in the right place for controls and no labeling. :lol: Labeling and graphics runs the gamut, i think. I've seen panels with hand-written labels, some with home ink printer paper laminated in plastic, and even truly pro-looking stuff that I don't know how they did it. Going the mail-order route with Schafer is an option, too, of course.

what do you guys think about making pcbs ? is it impractical ? i've seen people building simple modules with bread boards from the roland system 100m. i've also seen cnc'ed cooper panels. is there a big advantage to going with teh 'green" pcbs ordered online ?

I've been making PCBs since I was a teen. I'm not so sure that I would do it anymore, though, since there's now so many on-line sources available. I guess it depends on whether you'd rather save money or time. You will save money making your own, BUT first you have to have the right equipment, and you may be limited in the level of complexity you can achieve. Once you're setup, though, you can make one-off PCBs anytime you want. One thing that's hard to do with DIY boards is double-siding, i.e. copper traces on BOTH sides of the board. Double-sided boards make circuit layout easier, but then there's the question of how to connect traces from one side of the board to other. Professionaly-made boards do this with something called vias and through-hole plating, where they actually create a copper sleeve on the inside of the drill holes by a electroplating processes.

I don't bother with that. If I make my own boards, I stick with single-sided designs and just use jumpers where I have to.

Whether you make your own boards or have them sent out, you'll need to translate your circuit into a layout and routing. You decide what components you're going to use, place them on the PCB, and route the copper traces to each component. I like this part, I think it's fun. It's a kind of puzzle, really. Once you have the layout, you can then make your own boards or send out the design to have them made.

is it possible to make the 'green' pcbs ?

Oh, probably, but I don't know what involved. Probably some horrific process that's out of reach of the DIY guy. :lol:
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby ElectricPuppy » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:41 am

I've shown these pics before, but here we go again. :lol: This is an envelope generator I made from a schematic I found on the interwebbies. This is probably about 13 or so years ago...

Image

The panel is just black anodized aluminum that I drilled. The pots are mounted directly to the panel, but the knobs' skirts hide the nuts. Note the complete lack of labeling. This is so that I have to reread the schematic and study the module again so I can remember what the controls do. :grin:

This next shot is the back. Note that I mounted the board to the panel via standoffs and aluminum angle. The PCB I laid out, etched and drilled myself. The challenge here was that I was using a free version of Eagle CAD and it had a limit on the size of the board I could design. I just barely managed to get the whole circuit on there as a single-sided design with only ONE jumper (can you find it?)

Image

This is the back of the board. Note the copper color of the traces instead of the typical silver color; That's because professional boards "tin" the traces, which isn't really a practical process for DIY (yet more electroplating). This is also a really clear shot of how the PCB is mounted to the panel.

Image

Questions? :grin:
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby Plink Floyd » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:49 am

ElectricPuppy wrote:I just barely managed to get the whole circuit on there as a single-sided design with only ONE jumper (can you find it?)

Oh my yes, it sticks out like teh SORE THUMB!!

Image

:lol:
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby Plink Floyd » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:51 am

Nobody answered Metro yet about the triangle symbols, so

:ahem:

It represents a block diagram of some type of amplifier. Or a buffer, which is an amp with a gain of one (unity gain).

Consider the TL072 mentioned earlier. You all studied the datasheet, right? So you know it comes in several package types, with one, two or four op amps in a single chip. Here is the Dual In-line Package (DIP) containing two amps:

Image


But each of those triangles contain all this stuff:

Image

So you see why they wouldn't want to put all that crap on the drawing when they can just say "here's an op amp".

I can see how the diode symbol might be confused with the amp symbol, but of course they're different and this post is already tldr...
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby MetroSonus » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm

I figured they were sort of a macro! Thanks :thu:

ONE jumper (can you find it?)


if it's anything like this jumper, we'll have no trouble finding it!

Image

@Plink - for DIY labels, get a clear 8.5/11 sticker sheet and run it through a laser printer. Do up your panel in whatever program you want, print (or take to an office supply store and have them do it), trim, stick and then apply a clear coat on top.


here's some for inkjet actually:

http://www.amazon.com/Avery-Full-Sheet- ... leat+label

or you can go with white if you want. User preference.
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby christianrock » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:33 pm

I'm having a hard enough time fixing my bathtube faucet, so this thread is definitely not for me.

<-- NOT an electrical engineer nor anything resembling it
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby christianrock » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:34 pm

ElectricPuppy wrote:Image


DUDE IS THAT A JUNO
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby soundwave106 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:52 pm

NO IT IS PROPHET 5 :thu:

I'm so unhandy with a soldering iron, but I'm quite handy with C. Some day I should dig into writing VSTs, so I can at least stand to the side on these DIY threads as "the software guy". :lol:
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby gregwar » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:26 pm

TREEHOUSE DELIVERS

Image
Piano in a Treehouse by mallardine, on Flickr

:wave:
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby Plink Floyd » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:55 am

I like the idea of applying graphics directly to painted or anodized metal. Silkscreening is obviously the choice of the pro, but for us haxxorz this might be a good method for diy color inkjet labeling. You can watch the unnecessarily long vid or let me summarize:

- Get any 8.5" X 11" Avery printer label sheet and peel off all the labels so you're left with the wax paper backing sheet.
- Print your grafix (mirrored, of course) onto the waxy side of the sheet.
- Rub said grafix onto the desired surface with the back of a spoon.
- Topcoat with ???

---

Sometime this winter, I'm going to try making a pcb using the laser printer/FeCl3 method. Suggestimundos?
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby gregwar » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:10 am

guys guys guys and gals

i may have struck the diy jackpot !

here's a course i'm starting right now, i'm on the first lecture: electronics for music synthesis

its not just the lecture videos, aaron has a huge list of diy data sheets including preferred parts of synth-diy members (btw i joined the synth diy mailing list after hearing of it in a minimoog trololo thread of all places)

i've actually bumped into aaron's list of modular synth manufacturers and some of the links on his page are already purple lol.

i've been gathering reading lists thanks for the suggestion pup as well as diy schematics, pcbs of interest and methods of making them, pro soldering tips, panel making tips, etc.

here's the best resource i've found so far for noobs: muff's diy learning resources. muff's is often 10, 20 or 30+ page diatribes not of trolls like gear slutz but just so many posts its hard to find useful diy info sometimes. not so in the diy learning page!

so there you have it :wink:
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby ElectricPuppy » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:40 am

Plink Floyd wrote:Sometime this winter, I'm going to try making a pcb using the laser printer/FeCl3 method. Suggestimundos?

Yes, I might have some suggistamonsantos if you're gonna use ferric chloride:

- Warm it up. I used to place a jug of it out in the sun to do this. NOTE: The warmer it gets, the more fumes it makes, and the fumes will corrode everything metal in a 5 mile radius (I keed, slightly.) Do this outside. You've been warned! (DAMHIKT.) If you don't warm it up, it'll still work, but it'll take much longer.
- Keep it moving. Ideally you want the stuff to be constantly flowing over the surface of the copper. If you don't, it won't etch evenly and it'll take forever. I used to just keep the glass dish I used rocking back and forth by hand.
- It stains everything, and you WILL get it on you. Don't wear anything you want to keep clean because it will never, ever, wash out. It'll stain your concrete. It'll stain your fingers. It STAINS, like srsly. Wear rubber gloves.
- You can reuse it, so don't throw it out.
- Don't breath the fumes. It's nasty.
- Watch your boards progress. You'll see the bare board begin to appear between the traces. Just as soon as you're sure it's cleared out everything around the traces, stop and rinse the board off immediately. Don't etch longer than necessary because it'll start to etch underneath the traces and you'll get weak trace or they'll just etch off if you wait too long, regardless of the resist.

Related board making info (Plinky, you probably know this alreadly, but I'll ramble on for the other DIY dudes).

I've done boards a few ways: a) with a sharpie (yes, really), b) with some iron-on stuff, and c) with a photoresist.

If you're in a serious hurry and don't need super fine traces, you can just draw your design straight on the copper with a Sharpie. This is not high-end work, though. :lol: Be careful that your traces are thick and black so that NO trace of copper can be seen through the ink. If you can see copper, it'll get etched away. Then jsut etch the board. The ink resists the etching and voila! instant PCB.

There's some kind of stuff that's blue that comes on a sheet that you can run through your laser printer. You print your board layout right on this blue sheet, then transfer it to your bare board with an iron. I've had hit-n- miss with this, so I'm not sure I recommend it unless, again, you're in a hurry. But not so much in hurry that you gotta use a sharpie. :lol: When it works, it works great, though. I managed to get 0.05" traces with it... sometimes. Other times, the gods were displeased and ruined every attempt. Maybe the stuff's gotten better now, I don't know. also, this ONLY works with a laser printer, not an ink printer.

Finally, my recommended method, and the same as the pros use: Photoresist. You create an image of your layout 1:1 scale on a transparency, then lay this on a board that's been treated with photosensitive resist. Expose the board to UV light,and the pattern on the transparency exposes and covers the parts of the board you want to etch or keep. (It can work either way, called negative or positive. I forget which way is which). Then, etch board as usual. This gets you the nicest results by far.
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby Plink Floyd » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:53 am

Good tips, Pup!

I thought I'd try the laser to photo paper to iron-on to the copper method. But now some internerds are saying that the newer photo paper is waterproof and won't work. But, they also say that thin glossy magazine paper works just as well if not better. So I'll probably try that.

To agitate the board in the etchant, I thought I'd make a four cornered hanger/handle with some solid 14 guage insulated wire.

Wut UV light source do you use for photo?

--

Good resources, GWar! That Muff thread's where I found the magazine paper and wire hanger tip.
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby ElectricPuppy » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:47 am

Just plain ol' sunlight will work great. It helps if you live somewhere where the sun will cooperate with you, though. :) I've also got a UV light that I bought as part of a photoetch kit. It worked well, too.
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby ElectricPuppy » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:29 am

I have successfully killed this thread with my patented Man on the Mountain (tm) attack. :lol:
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby Plink Floyd » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:29 am

I've been busy investigating this "sun" concept you set forward. Interesting notion, having a perpetually radiant object floating in the sky from whence great amounts of magical warm fuzzy rays emanate, bathing it's worshipful children with happy joy.

Bosh, of course, but an amusing alternate reality on which to speculate.
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby selfinflikted » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:18 pm

Oh hai. WTF is going on in here? This makes my head hurt, you guys should post a disclaimer or sumfn.
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby soundwave106 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:55 pm

selfinflikted wrote:Oh hai. WTF is going on in here? This makes my head hurt, you guys should post a disclaimer or sumfn.


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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby gregwar » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:05 pm

here's my first panel layout for a lunetta CMOS synth:

Image
Lunetta CMOS synth 1 by greg_war, on Flickr

i should prolly get something like front designer from abacom to do the HPGL files for milling but making them on paper in pencil seems to help at this stage.

the first three modules are from tom bugs lunetta designs. there's a 40106 quad oscillator, 4077 quad xnor, 4015 dual shift register and a 4089 dual rate multiplier.

the right side is a drone lab from casper electronics. it has 4 oscillators, clock and tremolo, a low pass and band pass filter, distortion, and audio in and out.

its 4u high so 7" x 19" and has banana jacks. the jacks are stackable but still having more utility modules could be good like a mixer but whatevs.

mainly i've just added cv inputs to the oscillators, audio input to the bpf, lpf and distortion, and some leds to the drone lab.

i might add another row of knobs to the 40106 quad osc and some power knobs to starve them and the drone lab but i'm undecided atm.
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Re: DIY Filter Question...

Postby ElectricPuppy » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:50 pm

Looks like the makings of a lovely noisemaker. :thu:

Are you hoping to put CV control on the 40106 osc's? Because I don't they can be controlled that way easily.
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